Comments on: Suffering the Ache of Injustice http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/1514 thinking out loud Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:56:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: joe http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/1514/comment-page-1#comment-431 joe Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:04:31 +0000 http://www.douglasfloyd.com/?p=1514#comment-431 Thank you for responding- I think this is a very powerful and nourishing message; we are given two gifts by a Just God in this sense. The first gift, that all wrongs will be ultimately be righted, And the second gift that in knowing this we have Hope; And through hope we can get the strength we need to spread more hope, have mercy, bear wrongs, and live well. Thank you once again for sharing these thoughts (and taking the time to clarify!) These posts are a great inspiration to me! Thank you for responding- I think this is a very powerful and nourishing message; we are given two gifts by a Just God in this sense. The first gift, that all wrongs will be ultimately be righted, And the second gift that in knowing this we have Hope; And through hope we can get the strength we need to spread more hope, have mercy, bear wrongs, and live well.

Thank you once again for sharing these thoughts (and taking the time to clarify!) These posts are a great inspiration to me!

]]> By: admin http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/1514/comment-page-1#comment-430 admin Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:33:25 +0000 http://www.douglasfloyd.com/?p=1514#comment-430 Excellent point Joe. And I agree that the ultimate cry of the human heart is or should be, "mercy!" If we all learned to cry out for and show mercy more often, our world might seem a bit more just. As I wrote that post I was literally thinking of several real stories where the people I know are literally trapped by the cruelty of another person. There is no legal recompense. As I heard one story, I wanted to inflict some sort of pain upon the perpetrator. I was so angry and hurt for the offended party, my primal response was raw aggressive power in the face of her oppressor. There are no laws that can help her in this situation, so all she can do is endure the pain. As I read that psalm, I wondered if something grieve like that could be driving the psalmist to cry out for vindication. Instead of choosing resolution by joining the ranks of the wicked and committing more evil, the psalmist seems to find refuge in God's ultimate vindication and choose to praise and trust the goodness of the Lord. Now this might be where the post needs a bit of clarification. I don't think vindication or justice means that God becomes the agent of executing my pain upon someone else. (I fear that's how many people understand the doctrine of hell.) This is a most dangerous proposition because like you said, I don't really want what I deserve. So justice in that sense would require someone's pain be inflicted on me. And then we're all in a mess. By vindication I am thinking of the idea that things will be made right. Or wrongs will be righted. Not because someone gets his "just deserts" but that the offense, the hurt, the pain will ultimately be righted. The resurrection seems to be a down payment. A promissory note that all wrongs will ultimately be righted. (Once I tried to write what I thought this might look like (<a href="http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/407" rel="nofollow">http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/407</a>) If I have that assurance, I can have hope and peace even though all seems hopeless. Some folks see this as a pipedream. But for me (and I think for the psalmist) there is "positive energy" (or Spirit) from this hope that allows me to act in ways that go against my natural inclination or primal drive for violence and destruction upon those who have hurt me. But to your point. All to often, cries for "justice," can end up in actual bloodbaths of revenge and may drive many of the conflicts in our world today. Excellent point Joe. And I agree that the ultimate cry of the human heart is or should be, “mercy!” If we all learned to cry out for and show mercy more often, our world might seem a bit more just. As I wrote that post I was literally thinking of several real stories where the people I know are literally trapped by the cruelty of another person. There is no legal recompense. As I heard one story, I wanted to inflict some sort of pain upon the perpetrator. I was so angry and hurt for the offended party, my primal response was raw aggressive power in the face of her oppressor. There are no laws that can help her in this situation, so all she can do is endure the pain.

As I read that psalm, I wondered if something grieve like that could be driving the psalmist to cry out for vindication. Instead of choosing resolution by joining the ranks of the wicked and committing more evil, the psalmist seems to find refuge in God’s ultimate vindication and choose to praise and trust the goodness of the Lord.

Now this might be where the post needs a bit of clarification. I don’t think vindication or justice means that God becomes the agent of executing my pain upon someone else. (I fear that’s how many people understand the doctrine of hell.) This is a most dangerous proposition because like you said, I don’t really want what I deserve. So justice in that sense would require someone’s pain be inflicted on me. And then we’re all in a mess.

By vindication I am thinking of the idea that things will be made right. Or wrongs will be righted. Not because someone gets his “just deserts” but that the offense, the hurt, the pain will ultimately be righted. The resurrection seems to be a down payment. A promissory note that all wrongs will ultimately be righted. (Once I tried to write what I thought this might look like (http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/407)

If I have that assurance, I can have hope and peace even though all seems hopeless. Some folks see this as a pipedream. But for me (and I think for the psalmist) there is “positive energy” (or Spirit) from this hope that allows me to act in ways that go against my natural inclination or primal drive for violence and destruction upon those who have hurt me.

But to your point. All to often, cries for “justice,” can end up in actual bloodbaths of revenge and may drive many of the conflicts in our world today.

]]> By: joe http://www.douglasfloyd.com/archives/1514/comment-page-1#comment-429 joe Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:36:38 +0000 http://www.douglasfloyd.com/?p=1514#comment-429 I have to say, Doug, that justice is a scary thing. As you know, I'm no expert in matters of belief, but smarter folks than me (like Martin Luther and Jonathan Edwards) have given good arguments that a Just God, who gives us what we deserve, is an anti-human God. Judged by the standards of divine, infinite perfection, humanity is uniformly condemned. Of course, many are given direct knowledge that Got is not anti-human. Then, if God is Just, God is also infinite and all powerful, but few would say the thirst for power is good for us in our lives. Perhaps Justice is an attribute of a loving god, but surely it is not an attribute of a loving servant of God: If I have cookies, and I give them to the deserving, then that's good. But if I have cookies, and I give them to the deserving and undeserving alike, then that's better. More cookies, more joy, better for everybody. Right? It seems like the scriptures even tend to take this view (PLEASE NOTE I'm a fool when it comes to the scriptures, I could be flat-out wrong here, but it seems that "Vengeance is Mine" implies "And not yours.") As usual in these matters, it's very likely I'm misunderstanding the meaning of the word "Justice" in this context, but while I hope for and need mercy, grace, the reunion of the separated to be elements of the cosmos, a universe with no justice seems like no great loss. Thanks for the great post! I have to say, Doug, that justice is a scary thing. As you know, I’m no expert in matters of belief, but smarter folks than me (like Martin Luther and Jonathan Edwards) have given good arguments that a Just God, who gives us what we deserve, is an anti-human God. Judged by the standards of divine, infinite perfection, humanity is uniformly condemned.

Of course, many are given direct knowledge that Got is not anti-human. Then, if God is Just, God is also infinite and all powerful, but few would say the thirst for power is good for us in our lives. Perhaps Justice is an attribute of a loving god, but surely it is not an attribute of a loving servant of God: If I have cookies, and I give them to the deserving, then that’s good. But if I have cookies, and I give them to the deserving and undeserving alike, then that’s better. More cookies, more joy, better for everybody. Right? It seems like the scriptures even tend to take this view (PLEASE NOTE I’m a fool when it comes to the scriptures, I could be flat-out wrong here, but it seems that “Vengeance is Mine” implies “And not yours.”)

As usual in these matters, it’s very likely I’m misunderstanding the meaning of the word “Justice” in this context, but while I hope for and need mercy, grace, the reunion of the separated to be elements of the cosmos, a universe with no justice seems like no great loss.

Thanks for the great post!

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